(no subject)

[rhu]

From Yoma 19b: Once, in Rav's presence, someone referred to R. Zecharia bar Kefutal, and Rav made his fingers into the shape of a vet to gesture that it is spelled Kevutal. Why did he gesture? Because he was in the middle of reciting the Sh'ma, when one is not allowed to talk. An objection is raised: We have learned that gesturing with one's head, eyes, or hands is considered talking during the Sh'ma. And it is settled: gesturing is only forbidden during the Sh'ma paragraph, but not during the two following paragraphs; talking aloud is prohibited throughout.

Would ASL count as talking? It seems to be that the answer must be "yes", even for the second and third paragraphs of Sh'ma. Anyone out there know? (sethg, didn't you do a shiur on this once?)

One other thought. First, some background: we are not allowed to talk between the preprandial handwashing and the eating of the bread, except for the needs of the motzi. (For example, one can say "salt!" if one realizes that the person making motzi has forgotten to salt the bread, but one should not say "Hey, I think you forgot to put salt on that" and one certainly should not say "So, how 'bout those Red Sox?") This is to ensure that the two actions remain linked in our minds; if our concentration is interrupted (hefsek hada'at) then the handwashing is null and void and must be repeated.

But I think this would also cover the (unfortunately common) practice that some have of using hand, head, and eye gestures (while ostentatiously not talking aloud) to humorous effect while waiting for the others present to finish their washing and return to the table.

I'd like to dedicate this word of Torah in memory of my grandmother, Raizl bat Aryeh Leb v'Channa, a"h, on this, her third Jahrzeit. May her memory be a blessing.

Comments

[mabfan.livejournal.com]

Once you know enough ASL, choosing gestures that are not language becomes a problem. Nomi and I still use the standard gesture for "salt" if we need someone to get it for haMotzi. But we avoid using the ASL sign for salt, because that's talking.

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

But isn't that the point? One is allowed to say the single word "salt" if needed, so you should dvaka use the single word "[ASL sign for salt]" in that case, no? And one should avoid using even ad hoc gestures for "How 'bout them Sox?" or "Doesn't this spoon look silly on my nose?"

One seder, after we'd all washed, my dad was trying to decipher the instructions in the haggadah and I said "Hold all three. Say motzi. Drop the bottom one. Say matza." and that wasn't an interruption even though it was 11 words spoken aloud.

[mabfan.livejournal.com]

I know, but old habits die hard. :-)

(We know we could just say the word "salt" out loud, but something inside us resists.)

[leighjen.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Is the Sh'ma recited silently to oneself? Or is is said aloud? Because if it is said aloud, wouldn't it be okay for someone who "spoke" ASL to say it in ASL?

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

The issue has to do with spoken interruptions of (for example) the Sh'ma, not the reciation of the text itself. Saying "Sh'ma Yisrael, Hashem --- I'll be with you in a minute, Menachem --- Elokeinu, Hashem Echad" is right out.

So what this piece of Talmud is saying is that if you catch Menachem's eye while you're saying Sh'ma and gesture that he should hang on a moment, that's just as bad.

[cellio]

I saw a question on Ohr Somayach once about ASL and al netilat yadayim/motzi, and the answer was "not ok". If it's forbidden there, when al netilat yadayim is d'rabanan, then how much the moreso for Sh'ma?

A discussion in Brachot (um, 11-13 or so) seems to hold that we can interrupt between the paragraphs for the sake of honor and during a paragraph for the sake of your life. Correcting someone's spelling would not seem to qualify as either, so I would think the gesture would be out, but apparently the ruling is eventually about speech specifically. (Haven't seen it myself, but it looks like you have so I believe you.)