Pesachim, chapter 10
Mar. 22nd, 2009 03:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rhuThe last chapter of tractate Pesachim deals with the laws of seder night. I thought I'd learn them next, and why not share what I'm learning?
Mishna: On the eve of Pesach, from just before [the time for] Minchah, a person does not eat -- until it gets dark. Even a poor person from among Israel does not eat until he reclines [at seder]. And we do not [give] him less than four cups of wine, and even [if his sustenance] is from the communal giving.
Gemara: Why specifically the eves of Pesachs? Even the eves of Sabbaths and Festivals as well, as it is taught: a person does not eat on the eves of Sabbaths and festivals from the [time of] minchah and onwards, so that he will enter to the Sabbath with appetite -- the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Yosei says: [one may] eat and walk until it gets dark. Rav Huna says: It is not necessary [to teach this] except for [the position] of Rabbi Yosei, for he said "one [may] eat and drink until it gets dark". What case is he dealing with? with the eves of Sabbaths and festivals, but on the eve of Pesach, because of the obligation of matzah, he acknowledges [that one should refrain].
Rav Papa said, even if you say it's Rabbi Yehudah, and there he discusses eves of Sabbaths and festivals --- from [the time of] minchah and onwards he forbids [eating], but just prior to minchah, he permits; but on the eve of the Pesach, even just prior to minchah, he also forbids.
And on the eve of Sabbath just prior to Minchah he permits eating? But it was taught: A person does not eat on the eve of Shabbat and festivals from the ninth hour and onwards, so that he will enter into Shabbat with an appetite --- the words of Rabbi Yehudah; Rabbi Yosei says he eats and walks until it gets dark.
Mar Zutra said: Who is it who says that this teaching is traditional? [100a] Perhaps it is corrupted! Mareimar said to him, and there are those who it was Rav Yeymar: I went to the lecture hall of Rav Pinchas the son of Rab Ami, and a tanna arose and recited it before him, and he accepted it from him.
If so, we have a problem. Rather, it must be like [the teaching of] Rav Huna.
And to Rav Huna, who says it's acceptable? For did not Rabbi Yirmiyah say that Rabbi Yocahanan said (and there are those who say Rabbi Abahu said Rabbi Yosei the son of Rabbi Chanina said): the halacha is like Rabbi Yehudah with regards to the eve of Pesach, and the halacha is like Rabbi Yosei in [the case of] the eve of the Sabbath. [If] "The halacha is like Rabbi Yehudah in [the case of] the eve of the Pesach" --- that implies that there's a disgreement in both [cases between Rabbi Yehudah and] Rabbi Yosei. No, "The halacha..." --- [teaches that] they disagree [in the case of] an interruption. For it was taught: [If one is already in the midst of a meal when darkness falls,] they interrupt [the meal to make kiddush] for Sabbaths --- the words of Rabbi Yehudah; Rabbi Yosei says: they do not interrupt.
And it once happened to Rabban Shimon ben Gamleil (and Rabbi Yehudah) and Rabbi Yosei, that they were dining in Acco, and the holiness of the day fell upon them [i.e., Shabbat began while they were in the midst of the meal]. Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said to Rabbi Yosei: My Rabbi, is it your wish that we interrupt [our meal to make kiddush], to follow the words of Yehudah our colleague? He said to him: Every day and day, you favor my words before Rabbi Yehudah, and now you prefer the words of Rabbi Yehudah before me? "Will he force himself upon the queen with me in the house!" [citing Esth. 7]
He [Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel] said to him [Rabbi Yosei]: If so [if that's how you feel about it], we will not interrupt, lest the students see it and establish it as a halacha for the generations. And they said: they did not stir from there until they had established [by their example of not interrupting] that the halacha is like Rabbi Yosei.
Rav Yehudah said that Shmuel said: that is not the halacha--- not like Rabbi Yehudah and not like Rabbi Yosei. Rather: Spread out a napkin [covering the food] and make kiddush.
Really?
For Rav Tachalifa the son of Avdimi said that Shmuel said, just as we interrupt for kiddush [100b] so too we interrupt for havdallah. How do we interrupt? Is it not by removing the table [altogether]? No, with a napkin [is sufficient].
Rabba the son of Rav Huna was visiting the exilarch; they brought a tray [of food] before him; he covered it with a napkin and made kiddush.
Another teaching is like this: Both [Rav Yehudah and Rav Yosei] agree that they should not bring in the table unless there has already been kiddush, but if it has been brought, cover it with a napkin and make kiddush.
One teaching: Both agree that that one does not begin [eating a meal after mincha] --- and a different teaching: Both agree that one may begin. Now, really, the one that teaches that they agree one may not begin, that [teaching] applies to the eve of Pesach; but the one that teaches that they agree that one may begin, about what [case does it teach]? If you say 'the eve of Sabbath', that's the case where they disagree! No problem: this one [is talking about] before the ninth [hour], this one after the ninth [hour].
Excerpted from Pesachim at Dafcast.net. Copyright © 2009 Dafcast.net; all rights reserved.
Mishna: On the eve of Pesach, from just before [the time for] Minchah, a person does not eat -- until it gets dark. Even a poor person from among Israel does not eat until he reclines [at seder]. And we do not [give] him less than four cups of wine, and even [if his sustenance] is from the communal giving.
Gemara: Why specifically the eves of Pesachs? Even the eves of Sabbaths and Festivals as well, as it is taught: a person does not eat on the eves of Sabbaths and festivals from the [time of] minchah and onwards, so that he will enter to the Sabbath with appetite -- the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Yosei says: [one may] eat and walk until it gets dark. Rav Huna says: It is not necessary [to teach this] except for [the position] of Rabbi Yosei, for he said "one [may] eat and drink until it gets dark". What case is he dealing with? with the eves of Sabbaths and festivals, but on the eve of Pesach, because of the obligation of matzah, he acknowledges [that one should refrain].
Rav Papa said, even if you say it's Rabbi Yehudah, and there he discusses eves of Sabbaths and festivals --- from [the time of] minchah and onwards he forbids [eating], but just prior to minchah, he permits; but on the eve of the Pesach, even just prior to minchah, he also forbids.
And on the eve of Sabbath just prior to Minchah he permits eating? But it was taught: A person does not eat on the eve of Shabbat and festivals from the ninth hour and onwards, so that he will enter into Shabbat with an appetite --- the words of Rabbi Yehudah; Rabbi Yosei says he eats and walks until it gets dark.
Mar Zutra said: Who is it who says that this teaching is traditional? [100a] Perhaps it is corrupted! Mareimar said to him, and there are those who it was Rav Yeymar: I went to the lecture hall of Rav Pinchas the son of Rab Ami, and a tanna arose and recited it before him, and he accepted it from him.
If so, we have a problem. Rather, it must be like [the teaching of] Rav Huna.
And to Rav Huna, who says it's acceptable? For did not Rabbi Yirmiyah say that Rabbi Yocahanan said (and there are those who say Rabbi Abahu said Rabbi Yosei the son of Rabbi Chanina said): the halacha is like Rabbi Yehudah with regards to the eve of Pesach, and the halacha is like Rabbi Yosei in [the case of] the eve of the Sabbath. [If] "The halacha is like Rabbi Yehudah in [the case of] the eve of the Pesach" --- that implies that there's a disgreement in both [cases between Rabbi Yehudah and] Rabbi Yosei. No, "The halacha..." --- [teaches that] they disagree [in the case of] an interruption. For it was taught: [If one is already in the midst of a meal when darkness falls,] they interrupt [the meal to make kiddush] for Sabbaths --- the words of Rabbi Yehudah; Rabbi Yosei says: they do not interrupt.
And it once happened to Rabban Shimon ben Gamleil (and Rabbi Yehudah) and Rabbi Yosei, that they were dining in Acco, and the holiness of the day fell upon them [i.e., Shabbat began while they were in the midst of the meal]. Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said to Rabbi Yosei: My Rabbi, is it your wish that we interrupt [our meal to make kiddush], to follow the words of Yehudah our colleague? He said to him: Every day and day, you favor my words before Rabbi Yehudah, and now you prefer the words of Rabbi Yehudah before me? "Will he force himself upon the queen with me in the house!" [citing Esth. 7]
He [Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel] said to him [Rabbi Yosei]: If so [if that's how you feel about it], we will not interrupt, lest the students see it and establish it as a halacha for the generations. And they said: they did not stir from there until they had established [by their example of not interrupting] that the halacha is like Rabbi Yosei.
Rav Yehudah said that Shmuel said: that is not the halacha--- not like Rabbi Yehudah and not like Rabbi Yosei. Rather: Spread out a napkin [covering the food] and make kiddush.
Really?
For Rav Tachalifa the son of Avdimi said that Shmuel said, just as we interrupt for kiddush [100b] so too we interrupt for havdallah. How do we interrupt? Is it not by removing the table [altogether]? No, with a napkin [is sufficient].
Rabba the son of Rav Huna was visiting the exilarch; they brought a tray [of food] before him; he covered it with a napkin and made kiddush.
Another teaching is like this: Both [Rav Yehudah and Rav Yosei] agree that they should not bring in the table unless there has already been kiddush, but if it has been brought, cover it with a napkin and make kiddush.
One teaching: Both agree that that one does not begin [eating a meal after mincha] --- and a different teaching: Both agree that one may begin. Now, really, the one that teaches that they agree one may not begin, that [teaching] applies to the eve of Pesach; but the one that teaches that they agree that one may begin, about what [case does it teach]? If you say 'the eve of Sabbath', that's the case where they disagree! No problem: this one [is talking about] before the ninth [hour], this one after the ninth [hour].
Excerpted from Pesachim at Dafcast.net. Copyright © 2009 Dafcast.net; all rights reserved.
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Date: 2009-03-25 01:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 01:31 am (UTC)